For the Elfquest geeks

[annathepiper]

A thought that has crossed my mind now that I'm getting back into roleplay: suppose you have an elf who is capable of Fleshshaping. We know from several examples all over the storyline that such an elf is capable of shaping living flesh, skin, and bones--Winnowill does it countless times as she alters herself, other elves, humans, and animals.

Would it therefore be theoretically possible for an elf capable of this power to shape animal skins into usable clothing, as an alternative to non-magical tanning?

Discuss.

Comments

[avram]

Does it work on dead flesh/bone/etc?

[annathepiper]

That's the interesting point. :) We have no canon precedent for this except possibly Leetah lengthening Cutter's hair, and Redlance using his treeshaping power on a troll's spear. See my answer to lyonesse, below on this thread. :)

RE RPG

[larias.livejournal.com]

Well, going to ancient Chaosium game mechanics, their explanation for Redlance's shaping of dead wood is that he sacrified a power point to do so. In other words, its not something he can normally do. Plantshapers need live plants, unless they want to grow steadily weaker and weaker.

I'd say the same is then true for fleshshapers. They need living tissue. And I doubt very much, living tissue would make good garments.

My other arguement against is this, the power of boneshaping. Bone shapers shape dead bone and shell. They can not shape living, it must be dead. It can't be growing on its own. However, fleshshapers can shape living bone and living flesh. Derive from this: to shape dead flesh, you need to be a skinshaper, and we just don't have any of those.

Re: RE RPG

[annathepiper]

Ohhh yes. Boneshaping. Very valid point, if we go by the Chaosium rules. I buy that.

Re: RE RPG

[larias.livejournal.com]

Some of the power descriptions are pulled straight from it.

[eveshka.livejournal.com]

IMHO, I would say 'no' as it's not a living object.

To me, I would interpret that fleshshaping would work on something alive by changing and accelerating the production of the cells within the subject. If you're trying to work with dead tissue, there's no activity to alter or enhance.

[annathepiper]

Take a peek at my answer to lyonesse below, re: seeing Redlance using his power on a troll's spear. How does this affect your answer? :)

[jesshartley.livejournal.com]

I'd say the deciding factor is, can she shape non-living tissue (hair/nails) and, can she shape other individuals' tissue?

If she can shape her own non-living tissue, then there's a precedent that you might argue for her shaping non-attached non-living tissue. But only her own. Because she's not a potter working clay, she's manipulating her own body.

However, if she could shape shift someone else's tissue (other people/animals, etc) /and/ she can shape her own non-living tissue (hair/nails) then I would say yes, she should be able to craft leather skins into clothing without sewing, etc.

But if she' can't shape shift someone else, just herself, I would think it would be a "personal" ability, not an ability to manipulate things in general.

[mizkit.livejournal.com]

Leetah's been seen to grow Cutter's hair, but one presumes that's stimulation of the living roots or something, rather than manipulation of the already grown hair. I believe it's been intimated, as well, that Winnowill's phenomenally long hair is a result of her deliberately enhancing its growth. But still, that's working from the root, not the ends.

I'm pretty sure that in general I agree: the thing has to be alive to shape it. So no, a healer couldn't use her power to make clothes.

[annathepiper]

See the comment I've just made to lyonesse, elsewhere on the thread--we have seen treeshaping used at least once on dead wood, in Book Four. How does this affect your answer? :)

[avram]

We could also assume a more pseudo-scientific explanation (since we are talking about psi powers, after all), like maybe living creatures generate an aura that suffuses their bodies -- including heair, nails, and outer layers of skin -- and that fleshshaping works with this aura.

[annathepiper]

Heh. Or heck, who says it has to be pseudo-science? Maybe Leetah was just accelerating the death process of some of Cutter's cells to make his hair longer. ;)

[starsongky.livejournal.com]

More likely, making hair grow is simply part of Leetah's healing gift, which makes bone and flesh grow much faster than normal.

[annathepiper]

Well, these aren't mutually contradictory. :) I mean, making bones mend much faster than normal, that's definitely healing--but just making hair longer, that isn't really healing anything. Cutter wasn't damaged at the time! So that's definitely more fleshshaping, even if to a very tiny degree.

But they're tied together by a common thing: altering the shape of something about the body. Healing fixes that which is broken. Just shaping something is a different thing... but as Winnowill herself was heard to remark, "It's all one!"

(Hey, she might be an evil Black Snake, but this doesn't mean she's WRONG. ;) )

[annathepiper]

Well, this kind of gets into the difference between Fleshshaping and Selfshaping. Winnowill has been documented to shape both herself and others, for example--she has grown gills on herself, and she's also made herself look human in the Shards storyline. The Elfquest RPG does differentiate between Fleshshaping and Selfshaping, though, as powers--Selfshaping arguably being a much more complex thing than just external cosmetic changes, and the only real examples of this we've had to date are Timmain (and as of the very newest story, Kimo).

Also, see my comment below to lyonesse--we do have at least one example of a treeshaper using his power on dead wood. But that's treeshaping, not fleshshaping.

[lyonesse.livejournal.com]

i don't think so. we've definitely seen treeshapers work only on live trees, and plant material dies much more slowly than animal.

[annathepiper]

Actually, we've seen treeshaping used on dead wood.

There's a panel in the fourth graphic novel, the one about the Palace War, where Redlance is seen invoking his power on a troll's spear and making it grow spikes to pierce the troll's fingers.

[lyonesse.livejournal.com]

my assumption about that was that it was green wood inside, and thus not dead yet. there's too little *done* with either tree- or flesh-shaping otherwise -- leetah never does anything to, say, cook meat in interesting ways.

then again my general criticism of elfquest as lacking in creative progress for supposedly immortal beings may apply.

[annathepiper]

Well, I'm with you on that very criticism, as I have bitched about in earlier LJ postings. ^_^ (This is one of the things I do like about the new story; we actually see an elf taking on a new skill for once.)

Though I'm not sure if I buy the 'there was green wood' theory--we're talking the Frozen North, after all, and it certainly seemed pretty wintry in the time frame the Wolfriders got up there. While I could maybe buy a troll having a really new spear during more clement seasons in that terrain, it would seem a huge coincidence that the one troll that attacked Redlance just happened to have so new a spear that he could still shape it. :)

Also, having just gotten home from work, I have now checked my Wolfrider's Guide--and while it does talk about treeshaping/plantshaping working on living plants, it also mentions another example of a plantshaper affecting what in theory should be dead wood, in canon material. There's an issue in one of the later series where one of the sea elves warps the wood of a boat.

[lyonesse.livejournal.com]

are sea elves canon? i am way behind.

wood takes something like a year to actually become non-green -- you can't just cut it down and build something out of it; it has to dry and cure. i'm not sure at what point it's cell death and what point it's just water, but it *is* a long process, and i don't think "it was winter" implies that the wood is dead. trees look dead all winter without being so in general, after all :)

[annathepiper]

There are a couple of different sets of sea elves in the latter issues--both of them are called Wavedancers, but only the second set of them is canon now. The first set got punted out of the canon by the Pinis, and the (incomplete) series that they appear in is now considered, canonically speaking, to be part of a bunch of insane dreams had by a character Winnowill fucked up, a character who appears in the latter series.

Points noted about the wood thing, though! Thanks, I didn't know that. :)

[avram]

There are stoneshapers, and stone never was alive (well, except maybe limestone and coral). So it's certainly not true that fooshaping only works to shape living foo.

Best to limit our discussion only to examples of fleshshaping, then, and not expand it to include treeshaping.

If we assume that fleshshaping does work on dead material, are there now scenes that don't make sense, because they show a flashshaper failng to shape when it would be useful to do so?

If flashshaping works on dead material, could a flashshaper animate a corpse? Or alter its appearance to make it look like a different person (maybe to trick someone into thinking someone else had died)?

[annathepiper]

Considering these questions, I'm still not coming up with any examples of a fleshshaper shaping dead material other than Leetah lengthening Cutter's hair. Every single other instance of this power being used that I can think of is either a) Winnowill affecting herself, b) Winnowill shaping other elves (e.g., Tyldak, e.g., Rayek), Winnowill shaping humans (very later Rogue's Curse-era story, where she's warping humans in experiments), and Winnowill shaping animals (Shards and Hidden Years) into monsters.

Mender's also shown signs of being able to shape flesh, in a Hidden Years story that has yet to be concluded, where he makes himself look like a human to infiltrate a human village.

But nothing else is coming to mind right now!

[annathepiper]

No wait--I lied. There's also Jink shaping herself--but again, this falls into the category of shaping living material, I think, because Jink's only altering the structure of her own hand to give herself an extra finger or remove it, and altering the structure of her ears. Again, for purposes of passing as a human as she needs to.

[mizkit.livejournal.com]

I'd say that was a continuity error on the part of the Pinis. :)

[annathepiper]

ObSnark: Continuity errors in Elfquest? NO! SAY IT AIN'T SO! ;)

Ahem. Er. Hrmm. Do we know for certain it's a continuity error? (See larias's comment elsewhere re: the RPG's explanation for why Redlance got away with that little stunt in Book Four.) I can't think of any other canon examples elsewhere that would show Redlance shaping something out of dead wood, but HrMRMRMRmRmMmRMRmm. Perhaps I shall have to check my Wolfrider's Guide when I get home.

[larias.livejournal.com]

If folks want, I can even type exactly how it states. I know there aren't that many copies of the RPG out there (mainly cause I have several MUWAH AH AH AAH)

[annathepiper]

I've got a copy of my own, but if anyone else wants to see the data, what the hey. :)

My thoughts

[optimus-toad.livejournal.com]

While, depending on how the debate ranges, you *may be able to craft a set of leathers from animal skins.. ever think about what it will smell like in a short while? Fleshshaping such a thing would not include any of the curing process, so the skins would soon rot, and smell pretty horrible. Unless you plan on using healing/fleshshaping to keep the skin alive, as you wear it, after it has been FLAYED from the animal that gave it! Which just brings a whole other bunch of concerns to the fore. So, even if you find some other corroborating element save the Redlance one instance, you will find yourself with an elf, that consistently looks like they are wearing rotting skins, and smell like a trolls butt!!.

Re: My thoughts

[annathepiper]

Taking care of this problem is part of my working assumption for usable clothing; the situation you describe does not yield usable garments. :) Good point, though!

Re: My thoughts

[shikyrie.livejournal.com]

While not animal skins, how about the silk spun by the preservers? Couldn't that be used?

Re: My thoughts

[annathepiper]

This is an entirely different question, and it has crossed my mind. :) But there would be the question of what exactly that stuff IS and whether elves could manipulate it in any useful fashion, magical or otherwise, to make clothing. To the best of my knowledge we have no canon examples of such being done.

Re: My thoughts

[larias.livejournal.com]

If you made something out of preserver silks... Which I'm not inclined to call what they have as 'silks' since images of them 'making it' look more like either throwing up or hocking a loogey. Its not exactly of a continuous strand like spider silk is. So, making something out of it, would be pretty hard.

Though, if you succeeded, it would be a timeless outfit!!

Yeah, I should go to bed.

Re: My thoughts

[annathepiper]

Yeah, the Preserver goop does seem to come out in spurts rather than something woven--despite the fact that if you look at a wrapstuff cocoon, it certainly is always drawn as being in strands rather than random blotches. Go fig! Artistic license on Wendy's part, no doubt. :)

Re: My thoughts

[catrysa.livejournal.com]

Though if the goop could be harnessed, and cleaned of its sticky predicament, it'd have to be hand spun, like wool, before it is woven into cloth, then cuts and sewn into clothes. I would hazard to state that the 'curing' process, if masterable, would remove the wrapstuff's magical properties. If not, an elf dressed head to toe in the stuff would find him/her self incapacitated whenever a breeze closed his/her cloak. ;)

As for the depiction of strands: It's possible that the preservers claw the goo into place to ensure an even coverage. Not to mention that for a standing object, they fly around it, thus creating a spun look.

Re: My thoughts

[annathepiper]

Ah, that clawing thing is reasonable. The little buggers do seem to have scratchy feet and fingers. :)

And yeah, actually de-stickifying the goop seems like the hard part. I'm not at all sure it could be done!

[gazerwolf.livejournal.com]

Hmm, looking over the old Chaosium rules...Fleshshaping does damage and is used in conjunction with healing to correct the damage....

Healing uses an empathic link to the subject.

So My guess would be that YES you can shape dead flesh, but not much, because it damages the flesh, and you can't repair it because you need an empathic link to do that.

[annathepiper]

HrmRMRMm. HRMRmmm. Do I buy this? Possibly. This could still explain Leetah's trick with Cutter's hair--even though that was fleshshaping in a tiny, tiny degree at best.

Though you don't need an empathic link to yourself, I suppose. That would be an exception to the rule. :)

[shikyrie.livejournal.com]

You got a point, though hair is living... or is it? I know that it, along with fingernails continue to grow for a period of time after death... but whether or not it's "living" matter is another question altogether...

[annathepiper]

I'm pretty sure that both hair and nails are considered dead cells, yeah. Though damned if I recollect what actually generates them; I'm too tired to rack my brains and too lame to look it up on Google. :)

For the Elfquest geeks

[(Anonymous)]

I suspect that fleshshaping requires live tissue to work.



Stickmaker

[janne.livejournal.com]

(evil glider mode on)

Just shape the skins while still partially attached to the animals, and you get right past the living/dead issue ;)

(evil glider mode off)

[annathepiper]

*snicker* Yeah, we could shape the fur right off that little Recognized of yours. ;)

[janne.livejournal.com]

Hey, evilglider would be all for that =) Reduce the amount of embarrasment in his life by a small but significant amount ;)

[annathepiper]

But those pesky Wolfriders just seem to have this thing against having their fur shaped off! I mean, what's WITH that? Were they raised by WOLVES, or something?

[starsongky.livejournal.com]

My first instinct is no, because skins would be dead / no longer attached to a living creature. But there are rockshapers and stone's dead, so perhaps there's a fleshshaper variation that would only work on dead creatures and/or parts (skins & bones). Seems the same power would also then be able to shape bones into daggers, spears, and other useful tools.

[annathepiper]

Elsewhere on the thread a similar theory has been addressed. In the RPG, specifically in the Sea Elves module, a variant power called Boneshaping is introduced. The description of that power says that it only works on dead bone, and if you want to do living bone, you have to be a healer/fleshshaper. I can therefore buy the theory that if you wanted to shape dead skin, that would also be a variant power.

For the Elfquest geeks

[(Anonymous)]

To elaborate, I feel that normal shaping of living tissue - whether plant or animal - would work _with_ the tissues, using the energy and other resources in them to aid the shaping. Living tissue is a dynamic thing, with some natural changes happening all the time. Altering something which is dead - and I mean dead long enough for all normal metabolism to stop; recently dead would probably just be slightly harder than living - would be vastly more difficult, since not only would the shaper have to supply all the energy for the work, but force materials which have settled into a low energy state to change.



Stickmaker

Re: For the Elfquest geeks

[annathepiper]

This would kind of fit in with lyonesse's theory elsewhere on the thread that Redlance got away with shaping the troll's spear because it was still green wood inside. (I.e., reasonably recently alive.) This would also work with the RPG mechanics mentioned by larias, which specify that a shaper must blow a Power point in order to shape something that's dead.