Horse questions

[annathepiper]

This is for all you horse geeks on my Friends list--a couple of questions that have popped into my brain as I'm trying to work my way through editing the second draft of Lament of the Dove. Scenario, short form: three characters fleeing at top speed on horseback, two horses to carry them. They're trying to move as quickly as possible and cover as much distance as they possibly can without killing or maiming the horses, and changing mounts is not an option. So I'm assuming that their speed is going to be constrained by the stamina of said mounts.

My questions are these:

1) If I assume that my characters set out quite early in the morning (before dawn), and I assume that the horses are in decent shape, how long would it be reasonable for them to keep up a hard ride? This is only a passingly mentioned detail that is easily altered without impacting the scene in which it appears, so I have no concerns about making it shorter if I need to.

2) Again assuming that the horses are in decent shape, and that since my characters are on the lam and need to be able to scamper off again at the first sign of danger, I'm assuming that they really ought to leave the gear on the mounts. Difficult to flee quickly if you have to slap a saddle and all its accoutrements back into place, after all. But what might my characters do in the meantime in order to give the horses as much of a rest as they can? Should they take off any non-vital gear, or just leave it all? I also remember from a "A Horse Is Not a Motorcycle" panel that after hard exercise, you would want to walk a horse around a bit to keep muscles from locking up and stuff--correct? How long should I make the characters rest those horses if they want a prayer of returning to the same hard pace of riding once they get going again?

This is also background detail and won't hugely impact the scene in question, which is primarily between two of the characters while the third is handling the horses. But I want to get the horse handling bits right. Thanks in advance for any recommendations, all!

Comments

[ceallaighgirl.livejournal.com]

Sort of related but not really, you have me very intrigued, actually about your writing in general. Do you have any books available that I could read?

[annathepiper]

Well, I ain't published yet of course, though I've been working on it. :) But yes, if you'd like to read any of my works in progress, this is doable. Also, if you have any interest in such a thing, I do maintain a separate journal about my writing efforts. If you'd like to read it, I'd be happy to add you to its Friends list.

[ceallaighgirl.livejournal.com]

Yeah, sure!

[annathepiper]

The other journal is annathewriter; I've added you to its Friends list.

[seattlesparks.livejournal.com]

Hey, look, a comment I can leave on someone ELSE's journal with a Roman userpic. Yay, you get the big bay brat!

Anyway...

1) is very, very dependent on the type of horses. Are you talking draft horses, like a Percheron, Norman Cob, etc. Something like an Arabian or a Trakehner, a hot or warm-blooded horse? Etc. Every breed has different stamina and endurance, and then of course there are individual variances. I will loan you one of my horse breed reference books, if you would like. :)

2) When I need to walk Derby lately to cool him off without actually taking off the tack -- something that's actually more necessary now that I'm jumping, and have to cool him off before I can even get him back INTO the barn to take off the tack! -- I always loosen the girth. The girth (the strap running underneath the horse to hold the saddle in place) is one of the most uncomfortable bits of tack, and easily loosened and then tightened again. So I loosen the girth, walk Derby around a bit at a slower pace, and then actually take him back to the barn to remove the tack and groom him. If necessary -- and if Derby wasn't a spoiled-rotten show-jumping and lesson horse, who would bemoan his fate endlessly if I tried -- I could tighten the girth again and hop right back up after that.

[seattlesparks.livejournal.com]

Er, or I could pick the wrong userpic in my list and get the generic 'horse' pic instead of the actual Roman pic!

[annathepiper]

Hee! Not that I would have known either way. :)

[annathepiper]

Hrmm. This is where my general horse-cluelessness comes back in. I had not thought at all what sorts of breeds the various named horses in Lament are--and while I could easily say, "Eh, it's a fantasy novel, they aren't at all necessarily the same breeds as RL ones," that's a bit of a cop-out, I think. ;)

Let's see. These two horses are the mounts of my assassins, Julian and Rab, who have had to use them for extensive travel all over the realm. I could therefore conclude that both horses should be of a breed well-suited to frequent travel and frequent carrying of a rider. Julian's horse in particular should be exceptionally smart. Since Julian has only one hand, he'd have had to train this horse to respond to other means of instruction from him.

So let me think. Not necessarily big huge hulking war-horse type horses, but more the sort of long-distance, high-stamina runner type of horse. What sorts of breeds would be good RL parallels?

Okay, girth-loosening, got it. I can definitely see Rab doing that in the background while Julian and Faanshi are carrying out the actual main parts of the scene. Thanks! :)

[seattlesparks.livejournal.com]

The distances a horse can travel at a given gait given below by another poster are good guidelines, yeah. (I'd add that if you're switching between the canter and the trot, you can draw the canter out longer as they can relax a bit at the trot, but that's not particularly useful in DISTANCE riding, more a technique for hunter/jumper riding.)

When people violate those distance guidelines -- keep cantering or galloping a horse past the point it's really 'safe' -- that's when you have a rider literally have a horse fall out from under them, and have to grab another. You might find this article on guidelines for long-distance riding (http://www.pcta.org/help/join/magazines/LongDisRiding.asp) useful, even though it's directed specifically at folks riding the Pacific Crest Trail (a long, long trail that goes from Mexico up into Canada, via California, Oregon and Washington). The horses in question there were a saddlebred, and a pinto. Of course, she wasn't going particularly fast there, running for her life with a second rider or anything!

As for high-stamina runners... some of the best distance runners are, for instance, Arabians, but they're not particularly good pack-horses and will likely be Vastly Unhappy if you try to make them carry multiple people. (And they've got a firey temper to boot. Remind me to drag you by the stables and introduce you to Coalby someday...)

So I think the better focus is the day-to-day riding, not this one particular 'omg wtf RUN FOR OUR LIVES!!' situation, honestly. :)

I'll mull it over a bit. Others may have more input on specific breeds to model on; I admit my experience is focused on breeds suited (or at least useful) to English style hunter-jumper (traditionally used for riding to hounds, going hell-bent for leather through woods, etc... or, more modern, eventing with fences and water hazards and all), rather than Western or trail-riding. ;)

[annathepiper]

Heh, okay--what this is all telling me is that while the situation remains urgent, and they can't afford to linger in any one place for very long, they just can't be in 'OMG RUN FOR OUR LIVES' mode. Especially since Julian's horse is being made to carry an extra rider. At best, they're going to be sort of trotting for their lives. Maybe sauntering. ;) Fortunately, this part of the plot does not involve anybody jumping out going BOO and requiring them to go into real 'OMG RUN FOR OUR LIVES' mode.

Julian's horse in particular sounds like he needs to be cranky about his extra rider, too. I can do that. Muahaha. What are good 'cranky horse' indicators?

And thanks for the link! I'll have to read that tonight.

[kieri.livejournal.com]

You might also consider alternating the passenger between the horses. Having one horse carry double the entire ride is going to seriously slow you both down, as the doubled horse will get fatigued. Alternately, if you're actually carrying -gear- like blankets and tents and stuff, put everything onto the horse that's carrying only one.

And of course, to remember that anyone chasing you lot will have the same general restrictions in horses. They might also be having to cover more ground (ie, search every valley instead of just the one your characters entered to cross the mountains) or be more heavily loaded (heavily armed/armored men as opposed to lighter equipped fugitives).

Good luck. :)

[seattlesparks.livejournal.com]

I'm with Jen on this. If you're going any serious distance, unless there's a really GOOD reason not to swap the second rider between horses (like the extra gear), you'd want to do that. And finding a third horse would probably be a priority. :)

As for 'cranky horse' indicators, that depends on the horse, much like different people react differently when annoyed. Nipping at people, excessive tail-swishing, balking at cues... all can be indicators of crankiness (or of personality quirks: Ladd always nips at people and swishes his tail, and Roman just sort of habitually ignores cues).

[annathepiper]

I'll have to think about the possibility of trading Faanshi off between the horses. There are plot-relevant reasons why Julian is reluctant to let her ride with Rab--in no small part because he doesn't entirely trust Rab with her. But I hadn't thought of making Rab's horse carry all their stuff to make up for it; I may have to work that in somehow.

Re: cranky horse signs, thanks!

[annathepiper]

They're carrying some stuff with them, yeah--as I just mentioned to seattlesparks below, I hadn't thought of making Rab's horse carry their stuff while Julian takes Faanshi, but I may have to work that in. Julian doesn't entirely trust Rab with Faanshi, so that may be enough to keep him from letting Faanshi ride with him, but pragmatic considerations may trump that.

And thanks for the reminder about any pursuers needing carry stuff as well--you are quite correct, this would definitely be a "more heavily armed/geared people chasing more lightly equipped fugitives" scenario.

[chamois-shimi.livejournal.com]

It will depend a lot on the breed (or breed type), but an average type riding horse in very good shape should be able to trot about 7 or 8 miles per hour for several hours ... cantering or galloping they can only do for a short time and then need a lot of rest (maybe a few miles at most?).

Of course, one of your horses carrying double will slow things down a bit, and riding at a trot for hours on end is going to be extremely exhausting for the riders as well, unless it's a very slow trot or a very smooth-gaited horse.

[chamois-shimi.livejournal.com]

I just accidentally found a stat for quarter horses- on a 1/4 mile sprint, they can top 50 miles per hour. But they do that quarter mile, and then that's it, they're done!

[annathepiper]

Fortunately for Morrigh and Tornach, the two horses in question, the plot will not require them to bolt all-out at that kind of speed. They just need to keep moving as far and as fast as possible. ;)

[annathepiper]

See my remarks above to seattlesparks about breed of horses--suggestions are welcome for appropriate RL breeds that could parallel what I want to be the characteristics of these horses. They would doubtless have other names in this world, but a good RL equivalent would be nice. :)

The point was also raised below that I should consider the terrain, which is a very good point--the terrain isn't level, and the characters are heading through mountains. So we're not talking galloping here, I should think. And maybe not even a great deal of trotting, as I would expect that to be difficult to carry off on slopes, especially for a horse carrying two riders?

[chamois-shimi.livejournal.com]

Generally speaking, if your fantasy world is presupposing a sort of historical Earth-similar analog, then "breed" may not be all that relevant, unless the horses belong(ed) to someone who happens to have a great deal of wealth and land and free time or happened to be a sort of "native" breed (either wild or descended from wild stock). Folks who worked their horses for a living (cart horses, plow horses, etc... and probably only owned a couple horses at most anyway) wouldn't have cared so much about keeping bloodlines pure- only as far as they needed to in order to prevent inbreeding and to select for useful traits- strength, size, endurance, etc.

Often the most vigorous, strongest individuals (and breeds!) are sort of "mongrel". A bit of this, a bit of that. A high percentage- maybe most- of today's horse breeds are sort of mongrel in their beginnings (I can only think of Arab, Akhal-Teké, (because there were no "breeds" when those two first arose).. Friesians too I 'spose though they had Andalusian blood introduced I dunno- a couple hundred years ago or something, and well, burros/donkeys and Przewalski's Wild Horse as exceptions), though I believe most (all?) now need to be bred to others of their same breed to be considered purebred.

OK, all that said, a lot of the American breeds are extremely hardy. Quarter horses are sturdy and quick, Appaloosas have good stamina and are surefooted, Morgans are strong all out of proportion with their size, Mustangs tend to be small but thrive without supplemental feed. Outside the Americas there are some very hardy, surefooted pony breeds (Welsh Pony or Cob (trotting 35 miles in 3 hours!), Connemara, Haflinger, Dales Pony, Highland Pony) - but they may not be large enough to carry two adults any great distance. Trakehners are pretty but also smart and sturdy.

I think that even more than an Arabian, the criollo (a South American breed) is going to be your best bet. They are *amazingly* hardy horses. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criollo_(horse)
(Ignore the awful spelling- it's good info no matter how sadly presented.) 466 miles in 14 days carrying 245 pounds is pretty incredible.


Here's a good quote: "In general a good endurance horse will have a balanced conformation, a relatively light build, a strong back and excellent feet. Most importantly the horse's temperament must suit the rider - 100 miles is a long way if you can't work as a team!"

Which reminds me- about the feet- your characters had better check their horses' hooves every time they stop to rest. If their lives (or freedom) depend on sound feet, they can't chance a rock or other problem making one of their horses come up lame.

When dealing with non-flat topography, yes, the horses will go slower and need more frequent rest. If there's any kind of serious elevation change, the lower oxygen levels might also have an effect on performance. In particularly nasty areas, it wouldn't be unusual for riders to get off and lead (a long lead!) their horses for short distances- takes some of the burden off the horse, allows it to pick how to put its feet, and if it falls off a mountain well, at least the rider didn't go with it.

[annathepiper]

I'm mostly thinking about "breed" in terms of thinking about RL examples of horses that might match up what I think Julian and Rab (and actually Kestar and Celoren, since they also have named horses and I want to give them similar appropriate attention at their points of the book) would be riding. It doesn't have to be a hard, in-depth match--just enough to give me an idea. For things like, say, general ballparks of endurance and speed and such. :)

Thinking about Julian, at any rate, it strikes me that he's the type of man who'd take a "mongrel" horse over a "pureblood" any day, if that horse matched up well with his own personality and did what he needed it to do. So thanks for the pointer at the link!

And ooh, checking the feet. Good point. That's another small thing I can have Rab be doing in this scene. Elevation changes won't be too much of a problem--we're not talking Himalaya-style mountains here, maybe more like the Appalachians. But I'd think the slopes would still make transit interesting.

[fleetfootmike.livejournal.com]

I can check with the wife (vet) tonight.

[annathepiper]

Cool, thank you in advance!

[resqdog51.livejournal.com]

1) If I assume that my characters set out quite early in the morning (before dawn), and I assume that the horses are in decent shape, how long would it be reasonable for them to keep up a hard ride? This is only a passingly mentioned detail that is easily altered without impacting the scene in which it appears, so I have no concerns about making it shorter if I need to.


Ok, from the phrasing, I'm going to assume you are talking about standard palfreys, and not draft, or racing or other specialized kinds of horses.

Also, there are two definitions to 'hard ride' -- running as fast as you can as long as you can as far as you can... and making 'all best speed' over a set distance.

From what you are saying, I'm assuming "as fast as you can as long as you can as far as you can". Generally, a horse can keep up a hard gallop for about a mile... perhaps a bit less, depending, as everyone else says, on condition of horse, type of horse, weight on horse, etc, etc. But, on average, about a mile for a good hard gallop.

After that, they pretty much need a break. Heh.

If you just have them take off at a good cantering clip (the next speed down from gallop), then they can keep that up for... oh, in general, two or three miles, depending on terrain. But, again, they'd need a serious break after.

Going at a lope (next slowest after canter, also considers a SLOW canter) they can keep that up about the same distance, but need less of a break after.

If you are heading out at a trot, they can keep that up for a good bit longer and need significantly shorter breaks.


Umm... speeds, I'm sorry, its been a bit. I'd have to look up what mph each gait would be.



2) Again assuming that the horses are in decent shape, and that since my characters are on the lam and need to be able to scamper off again at the first sign of danger, I'm assuming that they really ought to leave the gear on the mounts. Difficult to flee quickly if you have to slap a saddle and all its accoutrements back into place, after all. But what might my characters do in the meantime in order to give the horses as much of a rest as they can? Should they take off any non-vital gear, or just leave it all? I also remember from a "A Horse Is Not a Motorcycle" panel that after hard exercise, you would want to walk a horse around a bit to keep muscles from locking up and stuff--correct? How long should I make the characters rest those horses if they want a prayer of returning to the same hard pace of riding once they get going again?

Standard 'breaking' routines are loosening the girth (so they can breathe easier), dropping the bit out of the mouth and letting it hang under the chin so the horse can graze a little, and watering them. Never water a hot horse... you have to walk them out cool first. You CAN give them about two swallows of water while you walk them... say, a circle for four minutes, two swallows of water, then circle for another four mintues, then two swallows... and so on until the horse is cool to the touch between the front legs.

If you are actually breaking long enough to eat, then it would be a good idea to unsaddle the horses and turn the blankets wetside up. If you have blankets that can be completely turned over and both sides used, then you might consider flipping them at each rest area -- put the wetside up to dry and put the dry side down against the horse's back. Its much more comfortable for the poor horse.


If you are going to be riding again, right away, you can let a horse drink a good amount of water. Like -- if they come to a stream, they can stop and let the horse drink pretty much all it wants so long as they are going to continue immediately.


..is that what you wanted to know?

[resqdog51.livejournal.com]

Actually, now that I think about it -- lope would be closer to five miles and trotting would be close to that before they'd need a break, but break long enough to stop panting would be good enough in either case.

provided the horse was in good condition and used to traveling.

[annathepiper]

It can be assumed that both of these horses are in good condition and accustomed to travelling, yeah. :)

[annathepiper]

This is all very helpful indeed, thank you. stickmaker points out below that I should also consider the terrain, which in this case is very, very pertinent as the general area is hilly/mountainous, which is absolutely going to keep the horses down to a slower speed. I figure that at best, for much of this stretch of time, they'd be managing trots. Maybe. Depends on the slope of the immediate area, I'd expect!

See my remarks about breed to seattlesparks above as well--I know what general characteristics I'd need for these two horses (i.e., the type of horse that is well suited to frequent long-distance travel and frequent carrying of a rider), but I don't know what RL breeds would be good parallels to consider for research purposes.

This particular break is intended to be the "first real rest" that the characters are able to get during their hard escape ride, so yeah, I'm assuming they're stopping long enough for the bipeds to eat as well as the horses. So the blanket-flipping sounds pertinent, as does all of this. Thank you very much. :)

[stickmaker.livejournal.com]

I'm asking my niece, who is in an equestrian program at Western Kentucky University and works at the Horse Park in Lexington.

As others have mentioned, the breed of the horse is important. However, something I don't recall seeing is that the terrain is also important. Naturally, travel over open, level ground is the quickest.

[annathepiper]

Ooh, the terrain is very pertinent, yes. The area in question is hilly/mountainous, so yes, this'd be keeping the horses down in speed, I'm sure. Thanks for bringing that up!

[firni.livejournal.com]

I know this is late, but my friend Marie says:

1) If I assume that my characters set out quite early in the morning (before dawn), and I assume that the horses are in decent shape, how long would it be reasonable for them to keep up a hard ride? This is only a passingly mentioned detail that is easily altered without impacting the scene in which it appears, so I have no concerns about making it shorter if I need to.

**As a point of reference, keep in mind that a Thoroughbred can maintain a top running speed of about 45 mph for 1 1/2 miles, but after that, they'll start losing speed and become exhausted. Average walking speed for a horse is 6 mph or (for a Tennessee Walking Horse) about 10 mph. A steady trot is about 15-20 mph and a nice canter or hand-gallop is 20-25 mph. A horse will be affected by breed, condition and weight of everything it's carrying.**


2) Again assuming that the horses are in decent shape, and that since my characters are on the lam and need to be able to scamper off again at the first sign of danger, I'm assuming that they really ought to leave the gear on the mounts. Difficult to flee quickly if you have to slap a saddle and all its accoutrements back into place, after all. But what might my characters do in the meantime in order to give the horses as much of a rest as they can? Should they take off any non-vital gear, or just leave it all? I also remember from a "A Horse Is Not a Motorcycle" panel that after hard exercise, you would want to walk a horse around a bit to keep muscles from locking up and stuff--correct? How long should I make the characters rest those horses if they want a prayer of returning to the same hard pace of riding once they get going again?

**Anyone needing to travel "long" distances on horseback, who need to cover ground as quickly as possible, will vary the speed of their horses from walking, to trotting or cantering for about 15-20 minutes, then drop back to walking, and so on. Running is reserved only for extreme flight and cannot be safely maintained over a mile. The variation between walk, trot, canter allows speed and time for the horse to "rest" while walking. Yes, you must walk a horse until it is dry to prevent it from getting sick, but the variation of paces allows this to happen while still covering ground. Again, terrain and weight on the horses will affect speed.**

[annathepiper]

Very good bits of information! The varying of the speed is particularly interesting; I should be able to work that in without any difficulty at all. Please tell Marie thank you for me. :)

[chamois-shimi.livejournal.com]

I've heard infantry troops in ancient times used a similar method of moving people as fast as possible as far as possible- I forget what the ratio was, but it was like jog a certain ways, walk a certain ways, jog, walk, jog, walk so they could "rest" without actually stopping.