Hey kathrynt!

[annathepiper]

Or anyone else who has the Music Clue... I've worked out the melody line to "John Barbour" off of Something Beautiful*, but damned if I can figure out what this melody's key is supposed to be. I want to say that B flat is the tonic, but I just don't know! Input, anyone? I thought that if I could get the melody line that'd help me figure out the chords, but so far, my guesses as to what chords would go with these notes have been wrong.

C    D    D   C Bb C    D   C
What ails you, my daughter dear?

Bb   Bb    C    C   A  Bb
Your eyes, they are so dim

Bb   A   G   F F D    G   G
Have you had any sore sickness,

Bb Bb  A    G   G    F    G G
Or yet been sleepin' with a man?

Bb C   D   D   C Bb C   D   C
I have not had any sore sickness,

Bb  Bb Bb  C      C  A   Bb
But I know what's ailin' me

Bb  Bb  A    G  F  D   G    G
I'm thinkin' of my own true love

Bb Bb    A   G  F   G
He plows the ragin' sea

Bb Bb    Bb  C  D   Bb
He plows the ragin' sea

Comments

From a Music Major (now minor)

[catrysa.livejournal.com]

The problem with having the tonic be Bb is that you have D, G, and A major involved.

Bb Major has two flats: B and E.
A Major has three sharps: F, C, and G.
As you can see, these two keys are fundamentally different. Mixing sharps and flats is not happy. But the frequent presence of the Bb chord in the latter part of the piece suggests that perhaps there was a modulation or even change of mode some where.

WOuld it be possible to hear this piece? THanks.

Re: From a Music Major (now minor)

[annathepiper]

These aren't chords I've written out here--they're the actual notes hit in the melody line. As you can see, it spends a lot of time on B flat. :) I thought I'd write out the melody FIRST and then see if I could pick the chords out based on what mode the melody seemed to be in. There's a lot of B flat here... but it doesn't seem to be the key of F, just because C, F, and G are the chords I know to play for that, and those guys don't sound right when I try to play along with the recording.

I've got considerable music foo myself--I would have been a music major if things would have gone differently in my high school years--so I know about the fundamentals of key signatures. :) What I don't know is enough theory to figure out what key a melody is in, roughly, just by a list of notes. I never took an actual music theory course; I just played for six years in Band. :)

I'm wondering if this is in some sort of funky mode like Mixolydian or Dorian, into which I am given to understand that folk music frequently wanders.

Took me a bit to poke around on the web, but if you go here, you can see the sample clips off the album this song lives on. It's track 10, "John Barbour".

[kathrynt.livejournal.com]

You're close. It's in G-minor, with possible occasional modulations to B-flat major, which has the same key signature. So your main chords are going to be Gm Cmaj Dm, with a lot of B-flat maj in there too.

[annathepiper]

And now the lovely and talented Mr. McCann has in fact confirmed that key of B flat. (Plus I saw him playing with his capo on his third fret during the song; Alan had a capo on the same fret on his bouzouki, too.)

Hrmm. The 1-4-5 chords for that key would be B flat, E flat, and F, yes? Gonna have to think about this some more. :) That'd mean G, C, and D while capoed. But I'm not hearing places where C and D can be put in there. HRmmM. HrMRmm.

I think I've also figured out that I could kick it up to C and sing that low note rather more comfily!

[catrysa.livejournal.com]

AH!! Yes!!! G minor!!! WONDERFUL key. :) One of my favorites. Thanks for helping out! ;)

[annathepiper]

I could get to like that key myself, though I have a very hard time achieving G minor on my guitar. :) It's a way easier chord on the mandolin and bouzouki!

[wrog]

Here's my transcription of what's on track 10 on the Tower site. Looks like straight Bb major to me. Very sparse, though; lots of open fifths. Also notice all of the Eb chords with Bb in the bass. What you've got posted above fits with this as well, but since I haven't heard that part, I don't know for sure. Anyway...

                        lyric       [dah] see[?]           
                       melody         D   Bb               
                        ticks            |/   .   /    .   |/  .   /  . |
                        chord            |EbM              |EbM         |
                         base            |Bb               |Bb          |
                      timesig            |4/4              |            |

 Be  a lord  or a Duke or a knight  or a man of wealth or fame        Or
|C   D D=D   C Bb|C    C D |C       Bb Bb|Bb  C C=C   Bb Bb=Bb       _Bb
|/   .   /   .   |/    .   |/  . /  .    |/   .   /   .    |/  .   /  . |
|Bbo    Cm       |EbM      |Fsusp        |EbM     Fsusp    |Bbo         |
|Bb     C        |Eb       |F            |Eb      F        |Bb          |
|4/4             |2/4      |4/4          |                 |            |

 is he  one night sai--lor  lass[?]  come tell me now  his name          
|Bb  A   G   F D |D F  F G |G         Bb |Bb   A   G   F G G            |
|/   .   /   .   |/    .   |/  .   /  .  |/    .   /   .  |/  .   /   . |
|Bbo             |         |EbM          |Bbo             |EbM          |
|Bb              |         |Bb           |Bb              |Bb           |
|4/4             |2/4      |4/4          |                |             |

 He's no lord nor Duke nor knight   nor a man of wealth or fame       
|C    D  D   C Bb|C    D   |C       Bb Bb|Bb  C C=C     D Bb=Bb
|/    .  /   .   |/    .   |/  .  /  .   |/   .   /     .   |/  .  /  . |
|Bbo     Cm      |EbM      |Fsusp        |EbM     Fsusp     |Bbo        |
|Bb      C       |Eb       |F            |Eb      F         |Bb         |
|4/4             |2/4      |4/4          |                  |           |

Bbo = Bb open (no third)
EbM = Eb major

I'll also note that I suck at hearing lyrics, so...

back buttons hide a multitude of sins

[wrog]

I suppose, strictly speaking, those Cm's are really Cm9 if you badly want the D to be part of the chord, but now I'm really going to bed.

[annathepiper]

WOW, thanks Roger! ^_^ I shall have to play with this and see if I can figure it out on the guitar--I HAVE to capo and transpose, because it is just too physically difficult for me to play the chord E flat with my teeny tiny hands, but this is a great starting point.

The snippet on the Tower site goes pretty well with the rest of the song; there aren't any choruses, and so it reduces down to a question of which verses go out on a G and which ones go out on B flat. (Where 'verse' here is defined as a set of four lines. :) The pattern of the song is not consistent as to where that final resolution of B flat in the melody happens, at the end of various sets of four lines...) And fret not re: the lyrics, I know which bits are which. I've memorized the heck out of this song. ^_^

Hrmm. Hrmm. Open fifths. Playing with a capo, this would be calling for G5's. I'll look up the fingering for that. And it would fit in with the style of how GBS performs it--the instrumentation is very sparse all the way through, just enough to accent Séan McCann's voice, almost, till the bagpipes come in on the drones at the very end.

Re: back buttons hide a multitude of sins

[annathepiper]

I'll play with this too and let you know! Hope you got some sleep. ;)

[wrog]

I'll note that I have no idea what a "capo" is (or a "bazouki", for that matter --- hi, can we say "keyboard player who mostly stays away from fretted instruments"?), though my naive reading of things is that you should just transpose to B major and be done with it.

... oh wait, is that what they call the D-shaped thing that clamps over the strings?

It is also remotely possible that the recording is actually in A major (another guitar-friendly key). My pitch sense is a little weird in that I can fudge things down to a half-step flat, probably having to do spending my first 8 years or so in a house with a piano tuned to A-400 (this being slightly lower than the modern Ab=415.30) meaning that, for me, hearing an A as a Bb is not actually out of the question (whereas hearing a Bb as an A is right out, since I can't fudge things sharp at all).

Then again, I guess if Séan McCann has actually confirmed that it's Bb, then probably not.

[annathepiper]

A capo is the clamp-thingie you're thinking of, yes. Their actual shape seems to differ depending on model and instrument; my guitar capo is a clamp, but my mandolin/bouzouki capo is this strand of elastic that winds around the neck of the instrument and hooks together.

Short form of what a bouzouki is: it's like a mandolin, only bigger, but not as big as a guitar. Let me know if you want a longer form. :)

The song's definitely in B flat--the good Mr. McCann said so. What I will most likely do it with it is the capo thing, but I'm not sure yet where I'll capo to. If I do what the GBS boys were doing, that would be a capo on the third fret, which would mean playing chords that natively belong in the key of G... but I'm not too uncomfy with the key of A, either, so I might capo on the second fret instead. Either way, the song would still come out in B flat.

Though I do like the idea of actually transposing it up to C and playing around with the positioning of my capo accordingly, based on how annoying the chords are in that key. :) I could sing the song much more easily then.