Well, today could be better

[annathepiper]

I'm seeing a lot of links coming over my Friends list about the erupting controversies surrounding James Frey and JT LeRoy. It's a little odd for me, because I've never read a word attributed to either of these names; in fact, I'd never heard of either of them until I saw these links coming around. (This might say something, I suppose, about my lack of connection to non-geek culture.) Since I have no particular investment in either of these writers, I can't say I feel any particular anger about the brouhaha surrounding them.

Yet I am vaguely miffed, and I think it's because I've become acquainted with so many other writer hopefuls via LJ and via Writer's Weekend. I see all you folks who, like me, are laboring over products of your imaginations. You're lavishing many hours of care into your writing. And all for the love of writing stories. Though I am proud to know some exceptions to the rule (hi mizkit! Hi jesshartley!), most of you, like me, are still working on getting something solid enough to get a publisher interested. It's a hard process. I know it. You all know it. It can and will probably take us years to get our works into print.

And what I'm seeing in these stories about Frey and LeRoy are people who have seen fit to short-circuit that process by being dishonest. I wrote with amusement before about Jim Butcher speaking at Writer's Weekend about when it came to publishing, you didn't have to worry about outrunning the bear, you only had to worry about outrunning the person next to you. This, though... this feels like turning around and shooting the person next to you in order to outrun that bear. It feels underhanded, and it feels wrong.

In other news, Google got back to me, and the word is no. Bah.

Wednesday evening miles: 1.85
Thursday morning miles: 1.6
Miles out of Hobbiton: 614.15
Miles out of Rivendell: 156.15
Miles to Lothlórien: 307.85

Comments

[kohaku1977.livejournal.com]

With Frey, I like to think he merely brushed up a few facts to make them more outrageous/ interesting/ shiny/ spectacular. His books are a good read, and I'm not really bothered by the fact that they aren't autobiographical. At least he wrote them. I wrote a short story about a girl who tries to figure out her own sexuality, and while parts were autobiographical, others weren't. But everyone believed I was talking about myself in said story. So, yes, I can accept that Frey's story is just that - a story.

JT Leroy vexes me though. Maybe because a bunch of editors made him up, and of course published the book as some sort of experiment. Bah. Better publish real writers. So I'm with you on that.

I'm sorry about google. They don't know what they're missing.

[smeehrrr.livejournal.com]

FUCK GOOGLE RIGHT IN THEIR GOOGLY EAR

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

The one that finally made me really mad was Susie Bright. In her blog, she wrote that she would have been pleased to help out even if they WEREN'T a teenage boy, because she liked the writing and enjoyed publishing new writers. As it turns out, SHE KNEW THE WOMAN WHO DID THE WRITING! She had worked with her! She feels badly duped, especially since JT LeRoy dropped her once he had some movie-star friends.

And I *know* this has to be annoying for someone who's working on getting published like you are, and has the integrity to not make up a fake life story to get in with the big guys!

[lyonesse.livejournal.com]

ya know, i can't get that worked up over mis-self-representation by fiction writers. it's not very nice for them to do that to their friends, but that's true for jerky people who misrepresent themselves and don't write fiction, too.

as for the work, it either stands or falls on its own. i personally think leroy's work is moderately readable, if not esp. my cuppa tea; i think frey is unbearable tripe and anybody with sufficiently poor taste to have liked it in the first place is getting no more than they deserve.

[celandineb.livejournal.com]

What I think is annoying is the writers' dishonesty. If it's fiction, say it's fiction. Don't pretend that this is your real unvarnished life because that's cooler.

Why do we (publishers and readers generally) give greater credence to a story if it's supposedly "true" anyhow? If we did not, this kind of duplicitousness wouldn't fly.

[firni.livejournal.com]

I offer you the meanest book review in the universe. (http://www.exile.ru/2003-May-29/book_review.html)

[annathepiper]

Your point is very valid that this behavior would be slimy in any profession, but I think it just happened to hit home with me because, well, aspiring writer here. I could honestly care less what either of them are writing; as I mentioned, I've not read either author and from what I've been seeing about their work in the links, I'm not feeling moved to go check either of them out.

And it's not a matter of them shafting their friends, for me--it's the lack of professional integrity, this apparent attitude of "I need to lie about myself in this way in order to get my work published". Especially when I'm acquainted with half a dozen writers who are busting their asses trying to get work published honestly, and who will never be remotely close to being that well-known or successful.

Though to be clear, I'm not really terribly riled up or angry, just... miffed. And resigned. And a bit sad, really. I stopped being truly surprised at evidence of the rampant dishonesty of a large part of the human race some time ago... but it still makes me kind of sad. Especially in the context of something that means something to me, like writing.

[annathepiper]

Wow. C'mon, John, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel about the book.

[firni.livejournal.com]

Any review I'd write would probably look like that.

Another reason I don't write.

[annathepiper]

Yeah. I have no particular problem with what these two writers have chosen to write; it's the way they've misrepresented themselves that vexes me. As I mention to lyonesse above, I'm not exactly surprised, just miffed and resigned and kind of sad--this sort of thing is just disheartening when I know half a dozen writers who are honest people and who will never be even remotely so famous even if they do get into print.

[solarbird]

oooh, Google is full of WRONG!

[clauclauclaudia]

Brimming over with wrongability! I'm sorry.

Your links are the first I've actually read about the TJ Leroy thing. See my comments in Susie Bright's blog (eep!)

[technoshaman.livejournal.com]

They've got their good points... but the trend is in the wrong direction, and this latest decision doesn't speak well for dv/dt.... i.e. their slide into Evil Corporatehood is accellerating.

Sorry, annathepiper... but at least you've got plenty of other fish you can fry...

[starfallz.livejournal.com]

Sorries about Google. ;( *hugs*

[lyonesse.livejournal.com]

i don't see it as a matter of "professional integrity", because i don't think a writer's nominal biography is their profession -- their writing is. i just think it's a slimy way to be. but i think it was even worse when a friend of mine had her electronic identity hijacked by some wannabe-haxx0r-babe, and my friend's an engineer, and the hijacker's intentions were apparently purely social.

i think that your friends wouldn't improve their chances of getting published much by changing their biographies. i don't think that your friends (or you) ass-busting is affected one way or another by these folks. lying about yourself is possibly actually a useful strategy in the confessional-autobiography biz, but that's not where you and your friends are at. do you really think that your chances in the fantasy world would be helped all that much by your telling potential publishers you're an elf?

[annathepiper]

Well, the problem I have with Mr. Frey is that he's not claiming he wrote "just a story", at least according to the articles I've seen. He's claiming that the things in his book actually happened to him. Now part of me doesn't have a problem with sensationalizing one's life to write a novel--but if you're going to do that, I think you should at least say so and let the reader understand that what you're actually offering is fiction, and not an actual memoir of your life. Otherwise, for me at least, it just feels... wrong.

Re: Google... thanks. Enh well. It could be worse. I could be without a job entirely right now. :)

[annathepiper]

In the case of most writers, you're right, details of personal lives aren't relevant at all. And I certainly don't think they're relevant for me or any of the other writers of my acquaintance. Nor should they be. The work should speak for itself.

In the cases of Frey and LeRoy, though, if I understand the situations correctly from the links I've read, their biographies have specifically become part of the point.

With Frey, he's made it part of the point because of what he's chosen to write. He's not saying it's fiction--he's saying it's a memoir based on his actual life. If I'm going to read something calling itself a memoir, I'm not going to be expecting a novel even if it's written like one, and I'm going to expect it to have a reasonable basis in reality. And if his claims about what happened in his life are in fact fraudulent, then yes, that's a matter of professional integrity for me--because it means he got that work sold by misrepresenting himself and the details of his life.

With LeRoy, it's even more of a matter of professional integrity, because if what Susie Bright posted on the blog entry I linked to is accurate, then there's an even bigger misrepresentation going on there--because the individual known as "JT LeRoy" doesn't even exist. Which means that the woman who fabricated that persona did the same thing that Frey did--i.e., misrepresented herself for the purpose of getting herself published.

Don't get me wrong. I don't believe that either of these individuals will have any impact whatsoever upon me or upon the other writers I know--if nothing else because all the writers I know are working in science fiction and fantasy. And I will cheerfully grant that that's a whole separate section of publishing reality than the section occupied by LeRoy and Frey. And when I post about this, I don't mean to imply that other acts of dishonesty such as your friend getting her e-identity hijacked (about which I am quite sorry to hear, by the way) are somehow less reprehensible. Dishonesty in general is, in fact, reprehensible.

But it does make me sad and a little tired to know that there are persons out there who would see fit to go to such lengths just to get that extra edge to get their words into print, when I know so many people who would never consider doing anything of the kind, and who may never get into print at all.

[annathepiper]

I, like you, am feeling rather unhip right now. A-heh. ;) I do have more than a little "okay, who are these people again?" going on, I must admit.

Your remarks over yonder about your (mostly) online interaction with the person who lied about a lot of aspects of herself rang true with me though, and I think part of my reaction to the stories about LeRoy and Frey are pinging off experiences I've had in that area as well. The Internet is rife with people who misrepresent themselves; I've been burned by such before.

As for the wrongability of Google, enh well, it could be worse. I could be entirely jobless right now! But perhaps I will have a good writing year and actually manage to sell something, which is what I want to do anyway, so. Thank you, regardless. I appreciate it. :)

[casirafics.livejournal.com]

Right... and if it were just any book, it would be one thing, but when he then becomes Oprah's poster child for things he claimed were true but aren't....

Sorry about Google. If I get any better karma at all in my own job-hunting, I'll send it your way as soon as I'm done. ;)

[annathepiper]

*hugs back* Thank you. Eh well!

[annathepiper]

*snugs* Thanks. And yeah, I do have a couple other fish, and I am reasonably sure that I will be employed through the rest of this year and possibly into the next, if I return to my prior team at Borg when this contract is done. So that's a Good Thing.

And who knows? Maybe I'll sell something, which is really what I want to do anyway, so.

[annathepiper]

Heh. Thank you.

[annathepiper]

Heh, but it would be FUNNY. And if the book is in fact wretched...

[annathepiper]

*snugs!* Thanks hon! But yes, by all means, store your karma for your own job hunt first. :)

[pinkdormouse.livejournal.com]

Bah to Google!

Gina

[annathepiper]

Yeah, Bright's blog entry is what I linked to above for the LeRoy stuff--and her contribution to the tale makes it more galling for me, because that brings in not only questions of professional integrity (i.e., misrepresenting yourself for the sake of getting your work published), but extra-crunchy transgressions of personal integrity as well.

As lyonesse rightfully points out below, a writer's personal life shouldn't even be relevant in most cases. Comments at panels at the Writer's Weekends I have attended the last two years back this up--all the agents and editors and authors who kept telling us that a publisher isn't going to give a damn about the personal aspects of your life unless they are pertinent to your writing, in which case they'd damned well better be accurate. Frey and LeRoy would be less annoying to me if they had just fabricated colorful details about their lives outside of their work--but since there is supposed to be this connection between their actual lives and their work, since at least in theory the details of their lives are supposed to be directly involved with their work, that's the part that made me want to write about this at all.

[annathepiper]

Heh. Thank you. But I'm trying to look on the bright side and tell myself that perhaps this year I will sell something, and get onto the road to eventually being able to quit CS entirely. ;)

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

And even aside from THAT - "JT LeRoy" spent many, many hours online and on the phone with his many "friends", celebrities and not, asking for help, talking about personal problems and trauma, giving them sympathy n return - basically PRETENDING TO BE SOMEONE'S DEAR FRIEND.

Fake name? Whatever. Your bio says you went to Harvard, but it was really Bellevue Community College? Whatever. Let the bookstore put it on the "non-fiction" shelf when maybe it should be one shelf over? Whatever.

But screwing with people's minds and hearts is just wrong.

[emmacrew.livejournal.com]

Well, poop on google.

[lyonesse.livejournal.com]

i'm not at all sure they did it to get into print. frey sounds like a garden-variety self-aggrandizing asshole to me. leroy i am less certain of, but my guess (from suzie bright's rendition) is that he is largely the product of self-aggrandizing fantasy with a side order of gender dysphoria and generalized hysterics. and oh yeah, they happened to write it down and submit it for publication, and the public lapped it up. but that's the public's problem, imho, and their crap is far from the most appalling lies in print in the nominally-nonfiction section anyway.

i mean, c'mon, i've been on the digest with you for umpteen years -- we've certainly seen our share of self-aggrandizing fantasists, and that nohow counts as publication :)

[cafiorello.livejournal.com]

Ooh, sorry about Google, babe. But you're still teh 1337 to have even gotten called in for an interview!

As far as the writers things, well, how about we start requiring ethics classes in high school? Seems at least as important as algebra, no?

Cathy

[firni.livejournal.com]

One woman's crap is another woman's treasure. I'd probably piss off a lot of people.

I mean, more than usual.

[annathepiper]

Not feeling terribly 'leet, but hey. I'm hoping maybe this is the Universe telling me that I really don't want a full-time CS position because I'm about to start selling novels. ;)

(A girl can dream, can't she?)

As for ethics classes... between this and all the scandals erupting out of Congress, I do wonder if we shouldn't enforce some sort of ethics classes, yeah. But my head hurts just thinking about how people would argue what needs to go into such classes. One would think that it wouldn't be too difficult to agree on ethical standards, but I'm not feeling terribly faithful about the ability of school boards to agree on such things right now.

[annathepiper]

Heh! Part and parcel of being a reviewer, I think. As well as your natural perky charm. ;)

[annathepiper]

*snicker* Uh, no. Can I make sad-eyed faces at them instead? ;)

[annathepiper]

Yeah, that's a whole extra level of suck. The lack of professional integrity is galling, but on the grander scale of things that's a lot more vile.

[pinkdormouse.livejournal.com]

I know that feeling.

Gina

[kissare.livejournal.com]

Stupid Google.

Stupid liars.

Stupid flooding. Oh wait, wrong post.

*hugs*

[annathepiper]

*hugs back* Don't forget the LANDSLIDES! Stupid landslides!

[annathepiper]

Heh, I bet! And as one does continue to need to eat, the tricky part is keeping up the working while aiming for the writing, too. ;)

[kissare.livejournal.com]

Yeah - stupid landslides!

And stupid colds/flus!

[annathepiper]

Hear hear!

I mean, LANDSLIDES. WTF? solarbird pointed me at special weather alerts for landslides in King and neighboring counties, just because the soil's so saturated that there's a danger of that kind of thing now. Totally screwed up.

And, of course, it's raining again this afternoon. GAH.

[kissare.livejournal.com]

Total soggy insanity. Seattle, where the native plants are all drought-resistant, yet it rains so much that we have landslides in totally impractical areas. What is UP with that.

And I left my umbrella in my car, and the SO has my car. And, by extention, my umbrella. So I am on foot, and increasingly damp. Whoops - bad planning on my part.

[annathepiper]

DOH! DOH! DOH!

[annathepiper]

(Sorry to take so long to get back to this... behind on email and LJ comments again.)

i'm not at all sure they did it to get into print.

I'm less sanguine than you about that, I guess. From what I've been hearing from editors and agents at the last two Writer's Weekends about the sorts of things people have done in order to try to get a manuscript sold--things like lying about their credentials even when they can be debunked by five minutes on Google, trying to offer bribes, etc., etc.--somebody making up a fabric of lies and calling it a memoir seems kind of in line with that.

Thinking about it, though, I can see the difference between that and what you're talking about. And I have no real way of knowing what actual motivations were going on there, since I don't know the people in question.

We're definitely in agreement that they're self-aggrandizing assholes, regardless. :)